Transcript: Leveling the Playing Field with Clara Wu Tsai -

MS. JENKINS: Hello, and welcome to Washington Post Live. I’m Sally Jenkins, a sports columnist for The Washington Post. And joining us today is Clara Wu Tsai, co-owner of the Brooklyn Nets and the New York Liberty--perhaps more importantly, the New York Liberty, to both her and I. And, Clara, welcome. Thank you for joining us today.

MS. WU TSAI: Thank you. It's really great to be here.

MS. JENKINS: This is an exciting conversation, because we get to lift the hood on something really remarkable, which is the monumental turnaround of an organization in a relatively short period of time. I think there are a lot of leaders out there who would love to know how to flip an organization in the space of five years. The team you bought had gone I think it was seven and 27 in 2018. And this year, they went 32 and eight. Can you--can you walk us through how you accomplish that kind of turnaround organizationally?

MS. WU TSAI: Yeah, well, I mean, it may appear to some people that we accomplished all that we did, like, overnight or in one year. But in fact, it was a five-year journey and a five-year process that really started when we bought the team in 2019 and announced that we were going to bring the players to play in Barclays Center in Brooklyn, you know, where the Brooklyn Nets play. So, starting with that, in 2020 we were able to secure Sabrina Ionescu as our number--as the number-one draft pick. And we built a state-of-the-art locker room in Barclays Center. We started to invest in performance staff, invested in player wellness, nutrition, player care. And you know, essentially, our goal was to be a free agent destination and create an environment where top players would want to come. But you know--yeah.

MS. JENKINS: Can you--no, please go ahead.

MS. WU TSAI: So I was gonna say that, you know, I mean--so I wanted to say that, you know, after, you know, we got the number-one draft pick in Sabrina Ionescu, and then in 2021, we were also able to add the Betnijah Laney, another key piece of--you know, of our team right now, and I think it was, you know, through this ability to, you know, create a destination where people wanted to come. I think that was the reason that we were able to eventually be able to bring Jonquel Jones and Breanna Stewart and Courtney Vandersloot to the team in 2023. But essentially, it was an intentional four-year process.

MS. JENKINS: Yeah. What attracted you to a WNBA franchise? There are a lot of NBA owners in the league who do not necessarily want to be invested in the WNBA. Why was this an attractive investment to you? What drew you to this particular franchise?

MS. WU TSAI: Well, first, you know, we believed in the potential of professional women's basketball in New York City, and we really felt that it was, you know, underdeveloped at the time that we bought it. But New York is a sports town, and it is a basketball town. So, we really believed that we could build a team in New York that could win championships, attract a passionate fan base, and also help increase the overall visibility of the league.

And for those of you who don't know, the New York Liberty was one of the original franchises. It had some of the--you know, the best players to ever play basketball in the league, legends like Teresa Weatherspoon and Rebecca Lobo. And you know, it had--you know, it had been around and was very storied, especially in its early days. And you know, we really believed, you know, that we could bring it back to those days. And our instincts really did play out because, you know, this year we had 13 sellouts, two building sellouts, and we also had the highest gate receipts ever in WNBA history in three of the finals. We had fans coming out to games, you know, in a city where, of course, there are always so many things to do.

MS. JENKINS: Yeah, yeah. Do you--do you have some idea of what's been driving this enormous--we've seen some really, really big numbers, not just with the Liberty but across all women's sports. You know, what are some of the things driving that really explosive growth, not just for your own franchise, but maybe broader--more broadly?

MS. WU TSAI: Well, I think there are a number of things that we can point to. You know, some could be the fact that there are more women who played sports as girls who are now watching professional women's sports. But I think that there's also just a broader cultural shift toward, you know, celebrating women's achievements, including those that are in sports. And at the Liberty, at least, we have a very diverse fan base. We have a lot of young men and women, we have older men and women, and we have young boys and girls. And I think that our audience really reflects the, you know--the, you know--the way that society has changed. People respect women in a different way than they did before, and I think that they can really appreciate these women just as elite basketball players. I think that they really appreciate performance, you know, regardless of gender.

But I would also have to say, Sally, that I think one of the main reasons that the audience growth has taken off is just the skill and the athleticism of these players is really at a level that it's never been before in the league. The women can really score from any angle. They can shoot deep threes. They can [unclear] with their teammates. It's just really exciting and competitive and very entertaining.

And I think that, you know, this is--this is why, you know, people are coming out to watch. And you know, I think that, besides the fact that they're really skilled, so many players now have, you know, this feistiness, or sort of this drive to like--to do everything they can for their team on the court, just because, you know, they can't lose. And I think this is referred to a lot as, you know, the dog mentality, and it's really great to have on your team. And it's really thrilling and exciting to watch. And I just--I think that that's one of the main reasons that people are watching women's sports more. It's just really exciting and competitive.

MS. JENKINS: Yeah--and I, you know, from my own point of view, sometimes I feel that there's more at stake in women's sports, that there's one of the underlying dynamics is that the audience feels that the women are playing for something more than victories. You know, there's usually some sort of social agenda going on underneath women's sports, whether it's equal pay, you know, the MeToo movement. You know, there are--a lot of times there are dynamics like that, I feel like underneath these games, unspoken, you know?

MS. WU TSAI: Well, always. You know, you hear Stewie, you know, when she received her MVP award, you know, she said she was doing this for Ruby, and Betnijah plays for her mom, who never got to play professionally. I mean, these, you know, women are always doing things, you know, for other people. And yes, very much true of women on our team and in the league.

MS. JENKINS: Back to the business of the WNBA for a moment, tell the audience why this is a good investment. You know, for so long, it seemed like investing in women's sports was seen as a social cause, like we were just talking about, or somehow charitable--you know, a charitable cause, but not necessarily great business. What makes it great business to you, particularly when compared with larger investments in, say, men's franchises?

MS. WU TSAI: Yeah, well, I think women's sports franchises are a good investment because they're a growth asset and there's a lot of upside potential. I think investors see that women's sports are at the beginning of a growth cycle, and that they believe that, you know, their asset is going to be worth more than they paid for it in a short amount of time.

For the WNBA specifically, I would say that, even though it's been around for now 27 years, it's still a startup league compared to the NBA. And when you look at the economics of the WNBA, almost along all dimensions, from team revenues to player salaries, the economics are one-one hundredth that of the NBA. So, if the WNBA grew to just 10 percent of the size of the NBA, that would still be a 10x return on investment. So, I think there's a lot of upside potential, and I think investors are seeing that too.

MS. JENKINS: How important do you think it was to the success of the New York Liberty that you didn't treat your asset like junk, which some owners in the WNBA have? I mean, you talked about, you know, going absolutely first class with the facilities. And you also took I think the biggest fine in the history of the league for insisting on chartering flights for your players in the interest of their well-being and their overall health, even though it ran afoul of WNBA rules. What was the message you were trying to send and why were you willing to take that fine?

MS. WU TSAI: Well, we didn't know at that time that we were going to get the biggest fine ever in the WNBA or NBA history, but I mean, you know, we did it because we--you know, we believe that we should treat our athletes like the professionals that they are and that we expect them, you know, to be. We expect a lot out of our players, right? We expect them to compete at a very high level. We expect them to win games multiple times a week. And it's really hard for them to do that if they're not getting adequate rest and recovery, if they're late to a game or they're--if they're late to the game because of a delayed flight, or because they had to travel long distances between where they live and their practice facility and the arena that they play in, I think it's really important to--you know, to care for them. And that's why we--you know, we prioritize player health and well-being and why we took the actions that we took and why we continue to do what we do.

MS. JENKINS: The WNBA raised an enormous amount of capital this past year. They got a $75 million investment. Two questions related to that. One is, what do you think those sponsors are investing in? I mean, there are different reasons for investment. What do you think they're looking for in that investment, number one?

And then number two, what do you hope the WNBA does with that money? What's the best use of that money?

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MS. WU TSAI: Well, yes, it was the biggest single capital raise ever in the history of sports league. And I think that it just shows the incredible belief that people have in the potential of the WNBA. I think that the best use of the proceeds would be into investments that will transform the league and will help the business grow exponentially. So that means investments in marketing, investments in digital platforms, in technology, and investments in all of the management, talent, and staff that goes along with those. So, engineering, product teams. I think you really need human capabilities and talents in order to really grow a business. So those are ways that I think that the capital raise proceeds should go.

And I think that's generally how the proceeds have been used. I think--I think there's been a lot of investment in more consumer touchpoints, you know, and in improving our app and our digital platform.

MS. JENKINS: You know, Clara, it seems like for so long, investing in women's sports, you know, was almost stigmatized. In any other field, if you buy an asset that you feel is undervalued, that has lots of growth potential, you're a business genius, right? But if you do it in women's sports, for some reason, you're doing it for other reasons, or altruistic reasons. Do you think that stigma is finally eroding? And what for you is the--is the greatest satisfaction in owning some ownership in women's sports? Is it--is it purely a commercial investment for you, or, you know, other things go with that?

MS. WU TSAI: Well, yeah, I think the WNBA and the NBA, they're both good investments, you know, at their--at a different scale. But both have potential for asset appreciation. I think that the NBA is a mature premium asset, and a lot of its growth is going to come from overseas. The WNBA is a growth asset. And as, you know, you've mentioned, you know, the business metrics have really grown exponentially pretty much all across the board this year. And as you probably saw in the news, there's an expansion team on the horizon. There will be a team in the Bay Area, and that franchise went for $50 million. And there are quite a few other cities that really want to be the next city to be awarded, you know, the next expansion franchise. So, you know, there's a lot of upside business potential now, you know, in women's sports, and particularly in the WNBA.

But for me, I think there are a lot of other intangible benefits that come with WNBA ownership. It's really great to be part of moving society forward. And it's really exciting and--you know, to be creating something new and exciting and culturally relevant. And you know, it's really hard to explain if you haven't been in our arena for some of our games, but the--there are so many people who come to me who can't believe what we've built, and to be able to create an experience like that that has never been experienced in our lifetimes is really special. So, from a pioneering standpoint, you know, it's really wonderful.

MS. JENKINS: Yeah, there's a unique satisfaction

in that, I would think.

MS. WU TSAI: Yeah.

MS. JENKINS: You executive produced a documentary, "Unfinished Business," which we saw a brief clip of at the--at the opener here. Why was that film important to you to make? And do you feel that--you know, you mentioned in the overture to the show the 5 percent number, about coverage of women's sports, which is, you know, really a chagrining number, to say the very least. We hope we're doing better than that--a whole lot better than that at The Washington Post. But do you see that number changing? Do you feel like the proportionality there is getting better, you know, particularly as a filmmaker?

MS. WU TSAI: Yeah, well, I do know that--from our own statistics, the New York Liberty, we saw a 125 percent increase in media coverage this season. So that was really great to see. And you know, I already see a lot of news coverage on ESPN right now about the NCAA, you know, women's basketball that's coming up. So, I think that's promising. And I know that that coverage will probably, you know, continue into our season, next spring, you know, as some of the stars from the NCAA, you know, enter the draft.

So, yeah, I think it is important to continue to story tell. The--you know, the movie that I made I thought was really important at the time, yes, not just to increase, you know, attention and bring attention to the incredible stars, but also because the league was--you know, really came upon that 25-year milestone, and I thought it was important to take a look back at the last 25 years, through the lens of one of the original teams, the New York Liberty, but I also wanted to introduce the world to the young fresh faces of the league. And so through the film, you get to meet the 2021 New York Liberty team. And you know, what you find through the movie is that, you know, we--that there--it's a young team with a storied history, a lot of promise, and a little unfinished business. So, I think it's a--it's a really great film that really is--you know, really represents that moment in time. And if you want to watch it, it's streaming on Amazon Prime. And you will see Sabrina Ionescu and Betnijah Laney, who were members of that 2021 team, and they're still on the roster today.

MS. JENKINS: I have to--I have to ask, do you have your eye on any collegiate talent? Is there someone you covet?

MS. WU TSAI: Well, I think everyone covets, you know, the same people. But of course, I think--I think it's a really--

MS. JENKINS: Yeah.

MS. WU TSAI: Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, they're--yes, they're incredible, Angel, Paige, Caitlin, so many stars. And what I really hope is by seeing, you know, the--what we've been able to show at Barclays Center, sellout crowd, 17,000 people cheering, roaring, emotionally engaged, that hopefully young girls are going to want to play basketball and aspire to become professional women's basketball players.

[Technical difficulties]

MS. JENKINS: We had a technical glitch there, lost each other for a moment. But fortunately, we're back and we're going to properly conclude this conversation because it's not just an important one, it's been a fascinating one. So, Clara, thank you for your patience.

I wanted to ask you, one of the more annoying things in women's sports is continual suggestions from people I consider fairly ill-informed, like Charles Barkley, who always have suggestions for like what women's sports need to do. Most famously, he told Candace Parker, you should--you should lower the rim so that women can dunk more. How annoying do you find these sorts of suggestions, this vein of thought, and do women's sports need famous male allies to help elevate them?

MS. WU TSAI: Well, I think it's incredibly disrespectful because that's just not the way the women's game is played. The women's game is not an above the rim game, and it's still entertaining and competitive without dunks. So, you know, women have been, you know, playing--you know, they've been competing and winning at the highest levels without dunking, and so I think it's just incredibly disrespectful to suggest that they should change, you know, just for the benefit of, you know, making it more like the men's game.

But as far as whether or not I think that we need male allies, I think definitely. But I also think that it needs to be authentic allyship. It needs to be people who really care to see these women succeed, and also who really respect their skill. We--the Nets had so many Nets players come to a lot of our home games. And I think that, you know, we have a very young squad, and many of them had sisters who played or who we had girlfriends who played when they were in college and they really respect and see the skill.

LeBron James tweeted about Marine Johannes’ one-legged 3s. He called them--you know, he said that she had a cannon. And you know, and I think that he realized that, you know, she makes impossible shots and he respected that. So, I--you know, guys know that they can't play the way she does, right? So, you know, I think when there's an actual respect there, then, you know, it's really great to have that allyship.

MS. JENKINS: Yeah. I once heard Larry Brown tell Pat Summitt, he said, you coach basketball, you don't coach women's basketball, you coach basketball, you know? And so I think there is a recognition among ballplayers of what great basketball really is, whether it's up or down, you know, below the rim.

MS. WU TSAI: Yeah.

MS. JENKINS: I wanted to ask you, shifting gears for a moment, Clara, let’s go to philanthropy. You guys have worked very, very hard as owners of the Brooklyn Nets and the New York Liberty with community outreach. Racial justice has been on your agenda. You're involved in all sorts of things.

One of the more interesting things, though, that I find you're involved in is the Human Performance Alliance Lab at Stanford University. Can you explain that arm of your philanthropy, what that alliance is setting out to do and why it was important to you to turn your philanthropy in that direction?

MS. WU TSAI: Yeah, so the Human Performance Alliance is a scientific and research collaboration among six major institutions, and it was formed to discover the fundamental biological principles underlying human performance. And the reason that we created it is because almost all we know about human health comes from studying disease and people that are in disease states. So, we wanted to flip that and we wanted to study optimum human performance in order to discover the basic biological principles that really enable that performance.

So, you know, it's really a question, well, what do people who are fit and high performing do and what can we learn from that? So, in time, this kind of research will have significant impact, not only on performance, but also on injury prevention, and on healing and training regimens, and also will have impact on regenerative rehabilitation methods to heal ligaments, tendons, and muscles. And so the goal is really not just to help elite athletes, but really everyone and help us all live stronger and healthier lives.

MS. JENKINS: It's really intriguing because it almost treats athletes like physical astronauts, you know, which I've always thought was a really important concept. I mean, you know, so we very seldom home in on what's really, really important about athleticism, and human performance would seem to be the thing.

You've also got a female athlete program component within the Human Performance Alliance, right? Can you tell us about that a little bit?

MS. WU TSAI: So the Female Athlete Program is a component of it. It studies gender differences in performance. It's led by Kate Ackerman, who is a physician at Boston Children's Hospital. She's also an endocrinologist. But the female athlete aspect of the research is so important that it cuts across all of the alliance partners.

You may know that so much of research in science and medicine is really based on men and male cohorts, especially in sports performance. But you know, females and female athletes have really never been funded as a cohort, and we thought it was important to do that, especially because there are some instances--for example, you know, female study--suffer ACL tears at two times the rate of [audio distortion]. So, the Female Athlete Program studies, you know, why this is, and really tries to figure out how we can--figure out how we can help develop therapies and get preventive techniques to women earlier.

Another finding that came up from a scientist at the Salk Institute is we found 40 different sex-related differences, gene expression, after exercise. And so that's very exciting. It can lead to female-specific trainings and therapies. So, we can get a lot more granular on what women need and can also make sure that we can include the effects of hormones on performance, which is something that really isn't able to be done if you don't study females as a cohort.

MS. JENKINS: You know, it sounds like absolutely critical research, and thank you for telling us about it. Unfortunately, we now truly are out of time, but I want to thank you for being here and talking with us today, Clara. Clara Wu Tsai.

MS. WU TSAI: Oh, thank you so much. Thanks.

MS. JENKINS: And this has been Washington Post Live. And for more of our programming and conversations, you can go to WashingtonPostLive.com and check out our other fascinating list of conversations and events. I’m Sally Jenkins of The Washington Post and thank you for being here.

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